Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discussion

General chat from around the world

Moderator: Traffic warden

ManicStar
Power slider
Power slider
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:58 pm
Location: Somewhere dangerous
Contact:

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby ManicStar » Wed May 11, 2011 9:14 pm

Well I know who my nomination for mook of the year goes to...

Seriously though, atleastinheaven, have you stopped for a moment to consider that you are the only person on this board castigating this man? There are a lot of skilled skaters who all seems to think what he did is perfectly acceptable, and is not particularly dangerous either to himself or others. Does this not tell you something? Several of the people who you disagree with would be considered experts in the field of skating, whereas the skating you do hardly qualifies you to be in a position to assess the risk in an informed manner.

As has already been pointed out rather eloquently, there is little to be done to entirely minimise the risks other than not skating, or only skating in a controlled manner, away from roads, traffic, pedestrians, etc. Does this mean then, that street skating should be banned entirely? Considering what I have seen on the street skates,it is not the safe environment, guarded in our snuggly blankets by the marshals that you seem to think it is. Accidents happen and whilst I can't back this up with any meaningful data, as there isn't any, many accidents are caused by gumbies, who are skating well outside their comfort zone. No problem you say, if they hurt themselves, they should have worn protection. Well what about the other people they bring down around them then? All those people who would not have stacked and only did so because some flailing gumbie grabbed them as they were going down. That's all very well you might say, but they should know the risks associated with skating in groups. Also true. But then the same is true of walking across a road.

Unless you live in cloud-cuckoo land, you know that roads contain dangerous fast moving things. Which is why we look and listen. The onus isn't just on us as skaters/cyclists/drivers to look out for dangers, but for us as pedestrians to look out for things when crossing the road. So he wasn't wearing lights and a hi-viz for the first skates, so what? He was going as fast as the cars would have been, on the left hand side of the road, on a well lit straight stretch. The fact that it was done at a quiet period, at night suggests to me that he already had minimised the risk, to what most people (in fact everyone so far, bar you) would call a reasonable amount of risk, both to himself and other road users.

You wouldn't want to do this because it's out of your comfort zone, that's fine. But please don't think that you know more about the dangers of an activity than those who have actually done it.

Yours,
A Dangerous Chav.

Becca
New school
New school
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: In BarbieLand
Contact:

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby Becca » Wed May 11, 2011 9:18 pm

atleastinheaven wrote:
I'm afraid this could turn into another semantics debate and that will require me to remove copies of Ayer's works off the shelves and blow off the dust. I really do not want to have to do that. Please do the semantic bits with gummidge and others elsewhere.


Well, you were the one that started the semantics debate with your reply to Duncan Clarke.

I must talk about it it you one day in the future when you de-minimize your risk-taking and drive up to London.


Errr, I would only minimise my risk-taking if I agreed with your argument, which I don't. The point I was making when referring to driving was that YOUR argument about minimising risk would lead to arguments in favour of people giving up all sorts of risky activities, including driving. Yet you seem to think that the high-risk activity of driving is acceptable despite the risks to others, yet 40MPH man's activities are not. I will never minimise my risk-taking, as I believe that my current level of risk is not too high. In fact, as I've commented to a few skaters, I need to take more risks in order to improve my skating. I am at the level where the tricks I now want to learn require me to commit to them which also means if it goes wrong I could get hurt. So I have to weigh up whether the risk to myself is worth the possibility to improve my skating. Therefore, I am more likely to increase the level of risk to myself than diminish it.

Becca
New school
New school
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: In BarbieLand
Contact:

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby Becca » Wed May 11, 2011 9:23 pm

ManicStar wrote:Yours,
A Dangerous Chav.


You're the biggest chav ever! Except that you're not, under any definition of chav that I've ever seen, except for atleastinheaven's. It seems that we are now allowed to make up the meanings of words to suit ourselves. Therefore, I am now a hippo called Butternut.

Dan B
New school
New school
Posts: 3837
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:01 pm
Location: Seen with sound equipment
Contact:

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby Dan B » Wed May 11, 2011 11:59 pm

Why are you guys posting on a web forum when there's a perfectly good skate on?

Naomi
Admin
Admin
Posts: 10882
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: Nowhere in particular

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby Naomi » Thu May 12, 2011 12:52 am

From experience, minimising risk when doing something usually involves removing the fun from it.

A great book is 'The Giver'. It is a very quick read about a very pleasant future where risk and pain has been minimised and we are no longer at the risk of making wrong decisions in life.

Interestingly, when I look back at my rather varied 17 years on 8 wheels, rolling down an open road at 40mph is one of the least risky things I've done & I'm sure the same goes for the rider in the vid.

gummidge
Traffic Warden
Traffic Warden
Posts: 5690
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:50 am
Location: SkateBitch Towers

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby gummidge » Thu May 12, 2011 11:44 am

atleastinheaven wrote:I cannot agree with your contention that my change in view is a 'minor modification'.

That was not my contention. You claimed to have made a minor modification to your viewpoint due the , apparently to you, extremely specialist scientific knowledge that trains hurt more than fleas when they hit you 40mph. My contention is that that is a major change in your position.

That means I will say that the shift in my opinion on 1) and 2) is major. The shift in my opinion on the matter of bio-physics is minor compared to the first two. You have a different view. You can have your different view and I will have mine. You call it major and I'll call it minor.

No no no. You call it aeolian and I'll call ionian.

Dan B
New school
New school
Posts: 3837
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:01 pm
Location: Seen with sound equipment
Contact:

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby Dan B » Thu May 12, 2011 12:39 pm

gummidge wrote:No no no. You call it aeolian and I'll call ionian.

That's an interesting mode of expression

magichow
New school
New school
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:20 pm
Location: W2 now init.

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby magichow » Thu May 12, 2011 1:53 pm

Becca wrote:Would any marshals who have the ability to record their speed do so tonight so that we have a figure to go on? I wonder if any of them get over 30mph. I wonder if any approach 40mph. If so, would you think them dangerous and irresponsible? If so, perhaps you should stop attending stteet skates in protest.


FYI, here's my GPS trace. I think the 30mph recording is a glitch, but the 24mph later on isn't. I'm being charitable to myself, and believing the speeds would be a bit higher on an LFNS. Other marshals of course would probably travel a lot quicker than me, too.

Mick
New school
New school
Posts: 2946
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Worthing, UK

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby Mick » Thu May 12, 2011 2:03 pm

atleastinheaven wrote: As a result, I would like to offer Mick a sincere and unconditional apology for my behaviour towards him.

Thank you very much, Jonathan. Apology accepted and I appreciate your openess. I'd like to echo Dan's comments (including not wanting to come across as patronising) about your looking at the evidence and changing your mind when you feel it's warranted, I know from experience how hard that can be!

You may like to know that I didn't actually take offence, it's just people arguing on an internet forum after all, but I thought it important to pin you down into backing up your claims as this is a subject that a lot of us here are closely involved with. Hope you don't think I was being too harsh in the way I went about it. Oh, and welcome to the Serpentine Road Debating Society :)

BTW, I really think you ought to overcome your squeamishness about language and venture into Foo more often, there have been some interesting discussions in the past on a wide range of topics. Yes, there can be a lot of noise mixed in but there's a lot of good stuff too. As a person with strong feelings who likes to express them you'd fit right in. In fact you could start a discussion about the pros and cons of swearing as it's obviously something you care a lot about (the helmet one has had everything said about it that could be said - several times over ).

What you have to remember is that although the exchanges can appear quite vitriolic at times, it's mostly between people who are good friends who will be skating together later in the day and then be laughing about it over a beer or three afterwards. Think of it as rough play with the only consequence being potential hurt feelings, and that's only if you take it too seriously. As with other kinds of play it actually serves a useful purpose as you not only end up finding out more about a subject but it also teaches a lot about the process of debate. It can be a bit bruising having ones cherished notions cut to ribbons but it teaches you the importance of being sure of your ground before committing yourself, and of being able to back up your opinions with evidence and sound reasoning. The result, as you've found out, is that it encourages one to do more research and often reassess ones views. I've learnt a lot from having my own ill thought out opinions hauled over the coals and I like to think it's made me more measured and thoughtful about the way I express myself. (rider as above about the patronising thing, I'm never quite sure whether I've judged it right)

I think I know who you are in real life in which case we've already met, but if I've got it wrong then come and say hello. I'm the old bloke on quads with a pony tail and white T shirt (because I care about visibility when it matters ;) ) often with an Asbomb and always prancing around like a complete tit.
Last edited by Mick on Thu May 12, 2011 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gummidge
Traffic Warden
Traffic Warden
Posts: 5690
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:50 am
Location: SkateBitch Towers

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby gummidge » Thu May 12, 2011 2:08 pm

Dan B wrote:
gummidge wrote:No no no. You call it aeolian and I'll call ionian.

That's an interesting mode of expression

Very good :mrgreen:

gummidge
Traffic Warden
Traffic Warden
Posts: 5690
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:50 am
Location: SkateBitch Towers

Re: I have (partially) changed my mind and other matter

Postby gummidge » Thu May 12, 2011 2:20 pm

atleastinheaven wrote:
gummidge wrote:
atleastinheaven wrote:1) I honestly don't know. But what I do know (what I hope) is that the relevant authorities are taking every precaution possible to minimize the danger of terrorism. And that applies to any risk assessment procedure.

Every precaution possible? I sincerely hope not, even in the case of terrorism.

1) Disagree but don't want to get involved in a discussion about your views on sanctions to reduce incidents of terrorism on this thread. It's for 'Foo' and I dont' do 'Foo' because I hate personal abuse and foul language

Well how about getting involved in a discussion about your views on sanctions to reduce incidents of 3rd party injuries caused by skaters. You did, after all, imply that every precaution possible should be taken to minimize this danger.

Do you not agree that the logical conclusion of that is that no one should skate at all in public?

atleastinheaven
Power slider
Power slider
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:27 pm

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby atleastinheaven » Thu May 12, 2011 5:31 pm

Mick wrote:
atleastinheaven wrote: As a result, I would like to offer Mick a sincere and unconditional apology for my behaviour towards him.

Thank you very much, Jonathan. Apology accepted and I appreciate your openess. I'd like to echo Dan's comments (including not wanting to come across as patronising) about your looking at the evidence and changing your mind when you feel it's warranted, I know from experience how hard that can be!

You may like to know that I didn't actually take offence, it's just people arguing on an internet forum after all, but I thought it important to pin you down into backing up your claims as this is a subject that a lot of us here are closely involved with. Hope you don't think I was being too harsh in the way I went about it. Oh, and welcome to the Serpentine Road Debating Society :)

BTW, I really think you ought to overcome your squeamishness about language and venture into Foo more often, there have been some interesting discussions in the past on a wide range of topics. Yes, there can be a lot of noise mixed in but there's a lot of good stuff too. As a person with strong feelings who likes to express them you'd fit right in. In fact you could start a discussion about the pros and cons of swearing as it's obviously something you care a lot about (the helmet one has had everything said about it that could be said - several times over ).

What you have to remember is that although the exchanges can appear quite vitriolic at times, it's mostly between people who are good friends who will be skating together later in the day and then be laughing about it over a beer or three afterwards. Think of it as rough play with the only consequence being potential hurt feelings, and that's only if you take it too seriously. As with other kinds of play it actually serves a useful purpose as you not only end up finding out more about a subject but it also teaches a lot about the process of debate. It can be a bit bruising having ones cherished notions cut to ribbons but it teaches you the importance of being sure of your ground before committing yourself, and of being able to back up your opinions with evidence and sound reasoning. The result, as you've found out, is that it encourages one to do more research and often reassess ones views. I've learnt a lot from having my own ill thought out opinions hauled over the coals and I like to think it's made me more measured and thoughtful about the way I express myself. (rider as above about the patronising thing, I'm never quite sure whether I've judged it right)

I think I know who you are in real life in which case we've already met, but if I've got it wrong then come and say hello. I'm the old bloke on quads with a pony tail and white T shirt (because I care about visibility when it matters ;) ) often with an Asbomb and always prancing around like a complete tit.


Thanks for this, Mick - you deserved the apology you got. What I find ironic regarding the video debate is that it was me who actually did the legwork which proved that those who were arguing against me had a very good case. There is so much evidence that they are largely correct and yet they didn't post links to the data that supported their case. Never mind - it has taught me a lot about evidential data concerning links between cycling, speed and injuries and that a lot of what applies to cycling will probably apply to skating as well.

Re. Foo - I am not ready for it. I agree with your view that the way people talk to each other does not affect the relationship they have when everybody meets up in the Park but I really do not want to read obscenties and personal abuse. I have worked as a High School teacher in Brent for 34 years and we spend all day everyday clamping down on kids swearing, being disrespectful both to each other and to adults who work on the premises. When I come home I don't want to hear it again. Still, you never know - I'm taking early retirement this year and will be working just two days a week from September so I'll have more time on my hands.

Yes, we do know each other. You're the bloke whose legs won't stop dancing even when we are at traffic lights. Hope to see you in the Park soon. Jonathan

atleastinheaven
Power slider
Power slider
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:27 pm

Re: I have (partially) changed my mind and other matter

Postby atleastinheaven » Thu May 12, 2011 5:39 pm

gummidge wrote: Do you not agree that the logical conclusion of that is that no one should skate at all in public?


No.

And as you will have seen from my last post at the bottom of page 2 I state that I have achieved the objectives I wanted to when I started this thread and that I had no wish to post any further comments. Anybody else who wants to take the discussion in another direction is most welcome to.

I have posted this message only because it may be that you had not seen and read the one on the bottom of page 2.

I will post again when something of interest catches my eye. See you.

gummidge
Traffic Warden
Traffic Warden
Posts: 5690
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:50 am
Location: SkateBitch Towers

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby gummidge » Thu May 12, 2011 5:47 pm

atleastinheaven wrote:What I find ironic regarding the video debate is that it was me who actually did the legwork which proved that those who were arguing against me had a very good case. There is so much evidence that they are largely correct and yet they didn't post links to the data that supported their case.

I don't see why that is ironic. You were spouting a load of old cobblers; every one was telling you that you were spouting a load of old cobblers, so you went away and tried to prove them all wrong and discovered that yes, in indeed, you were spouting a load of old cobblers.

Say I insisted that the moon were cheese despite every telling to stop being such a nincompoop . Who would you expect to go and look for evidence to support their position in that case? Me? Or them?

gummidge
Traffic Warden
Traffic Warden
Posts: 5690
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:50 am
Location: SkateBitch Towers

Re: I have (partially) changed my mind and other matter

Postby gummidge » Thu May 12, 2011 6:12 pm

atleastinheaven wrote:
gummidge wrote: Do you not agree that the logical conclusion of that is that no one should skate at all in public?


No.

And as you will have seen from my last post at the bottom of page 2 I state that I have achieved the objectives I wanted to when I started this thread and that I had no wish to post any further comments. Anybody else who wants to take the discussion in another direction is most welcome to.

It's not a different direction. The logic or YOUR argument leads inexorably to the conclusion that no one should skate. So many people have made this point to you, and you keep side stepping it through four techniques:

1) Pretending that debate is simply an exchange of opinions with no analysis, critique, and counter critique (although you manage to say all that in a mere thousand words or so)

2) Pretending that this central logical flaw to YOUR argument is somehow taking the discussion off in a different direction in which you wish not to go

3) Focusing on an aside, and declaring your disinterest in it while ignoring the central point being made about YOUR logically flawed argument

4) Pretending to have already addressed this criticism of YOUR logically flawed argument when in fact you have done no such thing

I have posted this message only because it may be that you had not seen and read the one on the bottom of page 2

I will post again when something of interest catches my eye. See you.

Get over yourself already. This isn't semantics. You don't need to blow off the dust from your weighty high brow tomes. It is simple elementary logic. Your statement that, "the relevant authorities are taking every precaution possible to minimize the danger of terrorism. And that applies to any risk assessment procedure.", directly implies that you think that every precaution possible to minimize the danger posed to others by skaters should be taken. The only logical conclusion to that is that no one skates.

Pretending it is a matter of semantics what you really mean by "minimize" is yet another of your avoidance techniques. Once you accept that every precaution can not be taken, and that risk cannot meaningfully be minimised, then you must go on to explain what you think is an acceptable level of risk to pose others, and explain why, in your opinion, this skater went beyond that level. That is the intelligent discussion to have here, but you won't have it because you're hell bent on sticking to your illogical position. And it is fairly transparent that you are fully aware of this given your numerous eloquent attempts to avoid addressing this central illogicality in your argment.

In short, YOUR argument has been shown to be logically inconsistent with driving, skating, or just about any activity at all. You must either demonstrate why this apparent fatal flaw is actually not a flaw or withdraw / modify your argument. In the absence of the former, and with no modification, your argument can only be assumed withdrawn.

Dan B
New school
New school
Posts: 3837
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:01 pm
Location: Seen with sound equipment
Contact:

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby Dan B » Thu May 12, 2011 6:14 pm

atleastinheaven wrote:What I find ironic regarding the video debate is that it was me who actually did the legwork which proved that those who were arguing against me had a very good case. There is so much evidence that they are largely correct and yet they didn't post links to the data that supported their case.

I'm not sure whether the implication here is that those arguing against you were right only by coincidence, or that they knew all this stuff and were lazy and/or mean to have kept it from you

ld50
Power slider
Power slider
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:59 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby ld50 » Wed May 18, 2011 1:55 am

Oh, Jesus Christ, I leave for a few days and come back to see this all over again.

If you'll excuse me I'm going to go skate down a hill at 50km/h without any protection on. People will be maimed and/or killed in a highly antisocial manner. Tomorrow: 80km/h, with full gear on.

Enjoy.

mit
New school
New school
Posts: 2114
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:52 am
Location: EC3
Contact:

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby mit » Wed May 18, 2011 4:47 pm


magichow
New school
New school
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:20 pm
Location: W2 now init.

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby magichow » Wed May 18, 2011 5:09 pm

^ If Faris had a moped, this is what he'd do.

Becca
New school
New school
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:37 pm
Location: In BarbieLand
Contact:

Re: Effectiveness of Safety Gear/Further 40mph Skater Discus

Postby Becca » Wed May 18, 2011 6:08 pm

You should've seen some of the scooter stunts we used to played at Pizza Hut! Scooter jousting = fun but painful.


Return to “General skating”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron