The Technical File ... its shake up time

Tips and advice on both skating gear and technique

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Q...
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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Q... » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:34 pm

plateglass wrote:
Q... wrote:thanks for the opinion Dan, im usually better explaining in person about the so called double push to those who have an open mind,writing was never one of my strong points, blah blah blah.


Nor is making friends now is it?


Dan has a closed mind when it comes to the DP and that's fine with me. not everyone will agree with what im saying nor will everyone disagree.
As for making friends well time will tell.[/quote]

You have managed to pretty much alienate everyone who read this thread. So I'd say you are starting 2010 pretty well.

You are definitly a contestant for "MOOK OF THE YEAR 2010"

I would agree with you on one point though. I always ask my girlfriends to stay open when we DP. makes things easier.

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby plateglass » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:05 pm

"MOOK OF THE YEAR 2010" is there a trophy with this title ?

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Bella83 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:18 pm

Dan closed minded now i'm in fits of laughter might even fall off the sofa

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby plateglass » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:22 pm

Closed minded as regards to the DP not in general.
just ask him if he thinks the double push exists and if hes open to the idea the second push is technically not a push,
this will solve the mystery of dan's mind

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Q... » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:25 pm

plateglass wrote:"MOOK OF THE YEAR 2010" is there a trophy with this title ?


Oh yes. Rest assure I will enter your name for the competition

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Bella83 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:27 pm

How is it that if you push your foot then push out again is that not 2 pushed this is how it's taught by trainers

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby plateglass » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:28 pm

Let me know if i win ok im sure ill be the only contestant !!

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Bella83 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:33 pm

plateglass wrote:Closed minded as regards to the DP not in general.
just ask him if he thinks the double push exists and if hes open to the idea the second push is technically not a push,
this will solve the mystery of dan's mind


Apparently he answered this on page 4

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Dan B » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:36 pm

plateglass wrote:Push Drive Carve Freewheel, This is the technique of the double push contrary to popular belief there is no double push within the technique just the 4 basic movements.

Dan B wrote:Whether this is what's going on and whether it's actually beneficial are two completely different questions, too. Which is what a lot of people (plateglass being one of them) miss about the DP: nobody really knows, and dogmatism just makes you look a fool. We don't have a backup Joey or a backup Chad who are equally as strong as their clones but with the training adaptations for classic push instead of for the DP-style push they've naturally evolved, so in the end we can't do a fair test of whether it's faster. We do know that they naturally do something we've chosen to call double push and that they're fast, but there are a zillion other factors to consider before we can say it's causation and even if we do eventually conclude that someone Joey-shaped is faster doing that funny wiggle thing than he would be doing "proper" skating we then don't know if that's a relevant result (or why it's a relevant result) for anyone not-Joey-shaped who's trying emulate him.
[...]
But, rant over. Just telling someone that they can "Push Drive Carve Freewheel" their way to victory is not in the least constructive.

And I'm the one with the closed mind?

Irony, it's just a kind of ferrous metal to you isn't it?

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby plateglass » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:02 pm

I will get hold of joey and Roger Schneiderr and ask there views on the subject, as for the dp if its beneficial to some the answer is yes the only thing im debating here is the validation of the 2nd push.

I apologize for saying you have a closed mind on this subject clearly i do get things wrong from time to time.

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Acidedge » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:26 pm

plateglass wrote:"MOOK OF THE YEAR 2010" is there a trophy with this title ?


Oh yes. I'm sure I have it around here somewhere...

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Naomi » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:41 pm

Acidedge wrote:
plateglass wrote:"MOOK OF THE YEAR 2010" is there a trophy with this title ?


Oh yes. I'm sure I have it around here somewhere...

Just to explain to Plateglass - Acid was the multiple winner of this trophy in the past :)

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Doug » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:37 am

Q..., I expect you've been practicing DP for a while now. How do you get around the problem of chaffing?

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Acidedge » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:02 am

Naomi wrote:Just to explain to Plateglass - Acid was the multiple winner of this trophy in the past :)


Just the once, actually. You know, I think Benson has it at the moment.

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby gummidge » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:05 pm

plateglass wrote:Disagree with someone and the tread just keeps growing, gummidge since you dont think anything i say is worth responding to then you wont be posting again on this tread.

You think?

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby gummidge » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:16 pm

Dan B wrote:
gummidge wrote: My point was really this, I guess. Pushing a door open can be done by arm extension or by transfer of ones body's momentum to the door through a non-flexing arm. I just think, looking at DP videos, that a lot of the DP is actually of the "straight arm door push" variety, with the actual knee flex having little to do with it. Hip extension may well be more important than knee extension. When trying that out with MvE I did get a lot more push than with the knee (but I felt so off balance I couldn't skate like that myself).

Ah, yes. That made more sense to me the third time round.

Personally l can't imagine still having any rightward momentum left to use for this purpose by the time I've finished pushing on the right leg, though (and I would argue that setting down early to get some is usually for most people a bad idea). Guess that just depends on timing and weight distribution (hence body shape) and stuff.

I was also thinking that a zero to rightwards momentum change should be just as doable as a leftwards to zero momentum change, with the same technique.

Basically, your aerobic engine can only put out so much. If you have enough output to be pushing constantly, could it not be more efficient to instead put more into the first push and glide for the second. Whatever momentum you're working against for the second push must be momentum you could have worked against in the first push.

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby lurch » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:17 pm

plateglass wrote:
Becca wrote:Also, posting a thread about aerobic and anearobic exercise and then saying nothing about the topic and just saying "you lot don't want this post to go ahead" is somewhat weird. Were you planning on ever going back to that thread and saying anything of relevance?


yes i looked for it the other day and couldn't find it so i assumed it was deleted, ill try to find it and start posting[...]

Ah ok. It's here, in Foo. It was moved because it was manifestly not about technique, tips or equipment. If you want to have this discussion in Technique Tips and Equipment I would suggest starting it on topic from post #1.

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby hatzi-katzi » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:20 pm

i use to race and train with skaters whos talents where natural and didn't need coaching
they where just dam good."

My favourite sentence of the day.

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby gummidge » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:23 pm

plateglass wrote:I will get hold of joey and Roger Schneiderr and ask there views on the subject, as for the dp if its beneficial to some the answer is yes the only thing im debating here is the validation of the 2nd push.

But a discussion isn't just an exchange of "I think this, and so does X and Y". You're supposed to explain why you think what you think. Without that there is nothing too discuss.

I apologize for saying you have a closed mind on this subject clearly i do get things wrong from time to time.

Wow! Maybe you're actually learning something. A good place to start would be to define what you mean by, "validation of the 2nd push". Do you mean, for instance, that you're only debating :

1) the benefit of actually double pushing,
2) the teaching of double pushing (it might help your technique even if DP itself adds nothing)
3) the existence of the double push in the gait of those skaters regarded as top DPers
4) something else

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Re: The Technical File ... its shake up time

Postby Dan B » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:35 pm

gummidge wrote:Basically, your aerobic engine can only put out so much. If you have enough output to be pushing constantly, could it not be more efficient to instead put more into the first push and glide for the second. Whatever momentum you're working against for the second push must be momentum you could have worked against in the first push.

When you say "first push" where are you counting from? i.e. do you mean underpush or outward push? I think the most efficient bit is likely to be the last part of the regular push as the leg straightens completely and the toe wheel points most nearly ahead: it's the fastest part of the push and allows the highest "gear ratio". I cry inwardly when I see people toe flicking - it's practically free speed they're throwing away there.

FWIW if you have enough output to be pushing constantly, for physiological reasons you will probably get better results pushing harder for part of the cycle and easing off for the rest. Mike Burrows estimates that the optimum rest/work cycle for a muscle is about 6:1, although we have to remember when skating that the glide is not rest (the muscle's in isometric contraction). That's one argument for DP that Barry Publow makes, in fact: that stretching and unstretching the support leg by doing a bit of an underpush/steer/what-have-you may be less fatiguing than a static glide


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