Why is Seba so eager to promote Trix over KSJ?

[Shaw]

China's MST team has switched to Trix, so has Gyro's Korean slalom team, and now I've noticed that Naomi's wearing them instead of KSJs as well.

I'm assuming that all of these skates are provided by sponsors, but why Trix instead of KSJs? KSJs still cost 100 Euros more than Trix last I checked (outside of China), so wouldn't that mean KSJs are still their #1 slalom skate? I hear how they're basically the same thing, in which case I don't understand the reasoning for calling them Trix instead of KSJ 2012s to begin with.

Maybe I'm just bitter that all the good skaters are using boring black skates now. Even KSJ himself is wearing custom black KSJs nowadays

[jipe]

May be the sales of the Trix is not what was expected = too low.

This can be due to the strange marketing positioning of the Trix, i.e. like a fitness skate instead of a slalom skate. So showing the Trix on the feet of top slalom skaters is a way to demonstrate that the Trix is (also) a slalom skate ?

About the price difference, yes the KSJ are more expensive and probably Seba has a bigger margin on the KSJ than on the Trix but the price of the KSJ is too high to be sold in big quantities (the color can also be a problem), it is not only 100€ more expensive than the Trix but also from any other competitor skate, actually Seba is the only brand selling slalom skates above 400€ (with Freewave but these are customs and its another type of products aimed at exclusive skaters).

The Trix are at the market price for high end slalom skates, their design and black color fits everybody, so Seba can hope to sell relatively big quantities of these skates to slalom skaters... if these skates are perceived as slalom skates what wasn't the case and will probably be when they will be heavily used by top slalom skaters at major slalom skating events.

[Shaw]

Aren't iGors the same cost as KSJs? Those are marketed as a top-end slalom skate as well, especially with 2012's pre-rockered frames.

It just strikes me as odd, since generally you want your sponsored skaters to be using the very best that you have, not what you think has a bigger market. You don't see Powerslide's sponsored skaters wearing S4s, or Seba's sponsored skaters wearing highs, even though those have a much larger market than Trix/EVOs.

I don't see how color is an issue here, as there's nothing stopping them from making KSJs black as well. They already switched from the good looking red/silver to ugly bronze to even uglier gold, why not continue with an even uglier black?

I'm just curious as to where this leaves KSJs, if they're trying to get slalom skaters to buy Trix instead of them. Perhaps they just realized that KSJs are overpriced and would sell better at 400 euros, but reducing the price of KSJs would admit that they're overpriced to begin with so they decided to rebrand it, mention something about fiberglass to justify the decrease in cost, and eventually pretend that KSJs never existed.

I also just remembered that Naomi used to wear iGors, not KSJs, although it wouldn't surprise me if she also wore KSJs at some point.

[Ozzy]

I think the main reason is Powerslide and their Evo: They recently have some success with pros switching to Evos. Which in turn would also push the "amateur sales" of Evos. That's the reason for any "pro-model" skate (or car, bike, etc.): Show that "pros" use this model to increase general sales.

Now Trix are Sebas direkt answer to the Evo: Both are enthusiast-level fitness/freeride/slalom-skates for people who don't specialize in slalom (those are still the target customers for High, iGor and KSJ).

But now what if Trix don't sell as well as hoped? This would call for some marketing magic: Letting some "pros" ride on Trix to show that those are no toys but serious skates. And a worthy contender to the Evo.

Even if this may hurt sales of the KSJ a bit, it may be worth it, because sales number in the more general market can easily outweigh higher profit margins.

[azumi]

You don't see Powerslide's sponsored skaters wearing S4s, or Seba's sponsored skaters wearing highs, even though those have a much larger market than Trix/EVOs.

Actually we did. However most pros switched to iGor, KSJ and now Trix. And honestley Trix look way cooler than KSJ. Plus -100€.

Oh and gold is gay, black is cool.

[Naomi]

Hi, I have some answers, but not all:

Jipe, you make some very good points.

My Feet:
Yes, I am wearing them, but my reasoning is nothing that you'd think. I have been wearing Igors for a while now, but as you probably know I retired from the skate/travel stuff to become the full time Seba importer/distributor in USA and Canada. That means I need to know all of the products, and I don't want to know them just as a typical importer, I want to know them as a skater because to date I've never said anything about the skates that I don't believe. I never warmed to the TriX, so was unable to give them good reviews. So when it was time to renew my skates (my Igors went to the feet of Natalie Ujuk during a London visit), I decided between the TriX and GTX, but the TriX won. So any TriX invasion definitely doesn't include me, and no one else influenced my choice.

It is also worth noting that I am no longer a good slalomer, so what is on my feet is all about comfort really. I've not even tried a wheeling since wearing TriX. I *properly* retired this time.

Same as KSJ:
Yes, so it pretty much does seem that the only difference in the boot is the carbon Vs fiberglass thing.

Colour:
KSJs are Gold because that is what KSJ insisted. He did. He had a lot of input into decisions of this type. Normal Sebas are boring black due to the colour kits. Mine are yellow & blue too!

Cost:
Don't forget that the Igor and KSJ skate has a skaters name on them. No idea how each skater is or was paid, but I know that KSJ was no dumb kid when the contracts were being made. He really is nobody's fool, and was also assisted by the skate industry veteran An Seongbae. That leads me to feel that it wasn't a lump sum, and that it would involve ongoing royalties. So, if everything was the same with the two skates, either the Seba brand would be making more per skate with the TriX, or the KSJ would need to cost a little more. I think any differential would be negligible, but that fact is there. I do not, at any point, think that the brand would risk falling into disfavor with KSJ though - like I said, he has turned out to be a very switched on guy, that looks more and more likely to stick around in every way. That said, what *was* he thinking with the gold??

Other:
Also worth noting is that when the very famous aggressive skater CJ Wellsmore won the skate cross in China recently, both he and ex world champion Shane Yost (both Australian) were sporting TriX with 90mm frames. I was surprised but it turns out that yes, it was their choice. I don't doubt it - I would expect neither of them to be told what to wear. Reminds me of when Seb used to win bladercross with RB Twisters & a 5x80 setup...

[Shaw]

@Ozzy
I'm not sure what you mean by pros switching to EVOs. Don't most pro skaters stick with a company for the most part? Or have some Seba sponsored skaters jumped ship to Powerslide?

@Azumi
You don't see them anymore I mean. Of course Seba skaters wore highs when highs were their top-end slalom skate.

@Naomi
I'm surprised to hear that KSJ insisted on gold, as he was wearing black KSJs when I saw him less than a month ago. I'm not sure I understand the royalties thing though. Bringing out a new skate which is basically the same thing and charging less for it so they wouldn't have to pay royalties doesn't seem quite right to me. I suppose KSJ's nearing that mandatory military enlistment age though, so it might make sense that they'd want to discontinue the line when that time comes.

I was actually there for the skate cross in China, but decided to go to the beach or something instead of watching the skate cross competition. I'm surprised to hear someone wearing Trix won, it seemed like the skaters wearing FRs outnumbered them 2:1.

[Herb]

Now Trix are Sebas direkt answer to the Evo: Both are enthusiast-level fitness/freeride/slalom-skates for people who don't specialize in slalom (those are still the target customers for High, iGor and KSJ).

Dude, what are you saying, is ridiculous...

1) Evo is certainly not a fitness skates. Control over comfortability, man. And also - short frames: - 219 (pre-rockered) for sizes EU 36-39, 231 (pre-rockered) for EU 40-41, and 243mm for EU 42-46. Fitness skates don't have pre-rockered frames, and have 80mm for all sizes, MINIMUM, 84mm and 90mm wheels are more common these days.

2) Evo is not a freeride skate, and seriously, suck for freeride. Stiff carbon/glass fiber shell and no shock absorbers, plus tight toe space, make them horror for your feet when riding on uneven surfaces and on landing jumps. I know a number of HC Evo owners, and almost all of them use these only for slalom, and have second, cheaper (sometimes more expensive... like USD Carbon in powerblading setup), but more comfortable pair of skates for riding the streets.

3) Evo is for sure skate for people that specialize in slalom! Pre-rockered frames, great, tight fit that give loads of control, x-slot mounting allowing changing frame position in every way, stiff construction of the boot, stiff frames, tons of support, ILQ 9 bearings, and you can heat-mold them to get rid of pressure points or get semi-custom fit. Only stock wheels aren't "true" slalom wheels, but they are actually worthwhile (which is a surprise, because Powerslide labeled wheels tend to be pure garbage) and remember Seba wheels aren't that great to begin with...

HC Evos are Powerslide equivalent to Seba Igor and KSJ II. Highs are blast of the past, concept that shows its age, and even S4 eats them for a lunch (seriously, try both skates and see for yourself which one feels closer to feeling of KSJ/Igor/HC Evo). Highs will eventually share the fate of Twisters and FRs in slalom - four years ago, many people still choose those, but as new models emerged, they moved on to more modern skates. It's all about linerless, slim, lightweight skates, and Highs do feel and look like tanks in comparison.

Trix is in the same price league as HC Evo, but: have less carbon fiber in structure* and come with 4x80, 4x84 and 4x90 setups. No pre-rockered frames, no shorter frames for smaller sizes, no heat-molding (missing from Igors and KSJ II too). I would say, for the same price you get less, when choosing Trix.

I think whole concept of Trix is major fail. They look overpriced compared to Hardcore Evos (but it's true that most Seba skates are overpriced), they could be good slalom skate for a medium price, to fit somewhere between S4 and HC Evo and replace Highs to some extend. But Seba decided to make them expensive fitness skates for some reason. I think actually only reason to not market them as slalom model and equip with shorter frames is to keep KSJ II sales at reasonable level and do not mess with KSJ himself. It would be disaster for them if the guy would get angry on them and refused to cooperate, and complete disaster if he would switch to other brand like PS or Freewave.

It's true that many people switch to HC Evos, but not because of price - but because each skate: HC Evos, KSJ II, Igor, S4 - fit differently and people want to ride the ones that fit them best. That's logical way of thinking, and it is practiced by speedskaters - they look for boot that fits best, because they know differences in trusted brands aren't ground-breaking, and they won't do much progress using boots that fits loose, causing pain and wasting push energy. I think slalomers are starting to adapt this way of thinking, and realize there is not one "THE BEST" skate out there, and try to find the one that is best for them.

*65% of carbon fiber and 35% of glass fiber in HC Evos - I remember that not long ago people were dissing the Evos for not being 100% carbon, but now Seba released Trix in which as rumor says have these proportions are reversed - and it's all good! Everybody wants to see Trix as proper slalom skate... fanboys, duh.

[Naomi]

(but it's true that most Seba skates are overpriced)

I remind you that no one makes much money (that I know of) out of the Seba brand because all of that 'overprice' is the money that has been paying for almost the entire sport. The competitions, the videos, the R&D etc that creates the sport and market for brands like Powerslide to slip right into. It subsidized my being able to travel the world teaching slalom (everyone knows I made very little to live on - but even that wouldn't have been possible without the Seba subsidy), it enabled us having big name & big skill skaters at all of our competitions, it provides prizes, it enables us to hire venues for competitions, to have sound systems that are not our own stereo systems, to have judges at the worlds that are not all local chinese/russian/french (whatever the locality is) skaters, to have organization for large competitions at all.

If you really feel that Seba skates are overpriced, then you are suggesting that the sport should have remained a mere speck of what it is.

You may feel that it was all driven by hunger for more sales, but I challenge you to feel that same way after spending a few hours in the company of Sebastien. In the USA even, I haven't even given myself a pay check yet in 2.5 years, but instead donate the few thousands of profit we got last year to the US competition series - and that isn't because I'm all nice - its not my choice, it is pretty much the brand policy that the skaters' needs are higher priority than mine.

[azumi]

(but it's true that most Seba skates are overpriced)

you get them all cheaper here, viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38195

[Ozzy]

Evo is certainly not a fitness skates

Sure. But lots of people who buy them use them like a fitness skate. It's similar to sport-cars: Most people who buy sports cars don't used them for motor-sport, they buy them because they are cool, driving them is fun, etc. Same is true for example for mountain-bikes: Many of them never see any mountains.

There are lots of skaters who want to show that they aren't beginners anymore and also that they can affort expensive skates. Now those skaters can buy expensive speedskates, but that's not the type of skate for people who like freedom and maneuverability. So what do those people buy? The Evo seem to be quite popular in this customer group. And Seba want's a piece of the action (they already sell the High into this target market, but it's never a good idea to rests on their laurels). That's probably the reason they developed the Trix.

Evo is not a freeride skate, and seriously, suck for freeride

Also true. But still people buy those skates for it. Not for real "hardcore freeriding", but for some kind fitness/freeride mix many people already call "freeriding".

HC Evos are Powerslide equivalent to Seba Igor and KSJ II.

Probably. But they aren't marketed as such. The Evo marketed as a general purpose "freeskate", not as a specialized slalom skate. And thats also how most people perceive this skate, even if the Evo may be better used for slalom than for other kinds of skating.

The same seems to be true for the Trix which is quite similar (maybe even identical) to the KSJ, but still not marketed as a slalom skate, but as a competitor for the Evo.

Again: I'm not talking about what those skates are really usable for, I'm talking about marketing. About the customer groups targeted by the marketing efforts of the manufacturers for those skates.

BTW: It's totally possible, that the Trix is technically identical to the KSJ, but since it has a different target group, Seba uses a different price to appeal to this group. That's a marketing concept called "market separation".

[Ozzy]

I remind you that no one makes much money (that I know of) out of the Seba brand because all of that 'overprice' is the money that has been paying for almost the entire sport.

That's quite hard to tell without looking into their books. All successful companys put lots of money into marketing. If it works, it pays back multiple times, so it totally worth it. Powerslide for example has put lots of money into aggressive skating in the past because they are quite involved there with USD, Kizer and Xjado.

But what Seba did with slalom went even one step further. The whole brand was created with slalom in mind and of course you can only sell a slalom brand if there is also a slalom sport. So building up the sport was and is in Sebas best interest. So they created the WSSA brand to restart the slalom sport from the ground up.

Now of course not only Seba profits from it, people who love slalom profit too. But again that's usual for sucessful marketing: Everybody profits.

[Naomi]

That may be, and I'm sure it is also in the best interests of those behind the skates, but I was addressing the suggestion that the brand is overpriced.

[Ozzy]

but I was addressing the suggestion that the brand is overpriced.

Sure, but other brands have lots of marketing expenses as well. So what you said is only correct, if you compare Seba to a no name manufacturer.

Also, price is not primarily driven by cost, it's used as both a marketing instrument and to maximize profits. A higher price may work better in this regard than a lower price. A price which is to low can even reduce the perceived value of a brand.

[Naomi]

but I was addressing the suggestion that the brand is overpriced.

Sure, but other brands have lots of marketing expenses as well. So what you said is only correct, if you compare Seba to a no name manufacturer.

I don't think that anyone anywhere, including those within other brands, would suggest that this is not true when you compare Seba to ANY other manufacturer.

[atlsk8r]

Sure, but other brands have lots of marketing expenses as well. So what you said is only correct, if you compare Seba to a no name manufacturer.

There's a difference between marketing a product and marketing a sport. The Seba founders have sunk huge resources and much of their personal time growing the sport of freestyle skating. That's hardly the model followed by other Freestyle skate companies, or even the major historical skate manufacturers the last several years.

No, price is not driven solely by cost, but in a commodity market, it is driven mostly by cost. Yes, in the beginning, companies like Rollerblade did a great job supporting the sport by sponsoring competitions, demos, touring pros, marketing. But, at some point, maybe after the trend showed signs of waning, the big guys abandoned that approach, and the market, at least in the US, collapsed. Skates in America are now firmly a commodity product, and, outside of some niche disciplines (like speed), the market is driven almost exclusively by price. Margins are tiny. There is very little innovation. Very little money is invested in inline events. I live in a metro area of 6 million people, and we have exactly one traditional skate shop left. I remember 2 years ago asking the shop why they stopped stockingTwisters and the answer was "nobody's going to pay $200 for a skate".

I feel loyalty towards the Seba brand because they returned to the model that created the inline phenomenon in the first place. Profits go back into R&D and growing the sport. You've got local distributors like SebaUSA joining in, sponsoring slalom organizations and an actual competition tour. Dude, my Facebook still gets spammed on a weekly basis with photos of Sebastien's mop top and Ray-Bans mugging it up at some local event in a small market. So you pay a little extra for the skate? Like once every 3 years? Big deal. IMO, this level of engagement in the health of skating is well worth the additional cost.

[jipe]

Seba's business model is also different for other points :
- Seba provides spare parts what no other company does.
- Seba provides customization parts and custom color in China.
- Seba skates are available all over the year with regular re-stocking (and possibilities for shop to order during the year) while Powerslide slalom models (as many other sport goods) are manufactured/shipped almost only once a year in one batch with relatively small quantities, pre-ordered by the shops months in advance, almost no possibilities for a shop to re-stock when what they ordered is sold out.

[Shaw]

If EVOs are marketed as a general purpose freeskate, wouldn't that apply to iGors as well? It seems like iGors fit the high-performance all-purpose freeskate profile much better than KSJs ever did.

I appreciate how Seba has promoted and developed the sport, but it feels as though they've been focusing on expanding into other markets the past few years. I saw Sebastian himself at the Beidaihe roller competitions the past two years, and never once did I see him at the slalom/slides area, skate cross seemed like his only focus. Last year, I heard that the finals for the speed slalom competition was severely understaffed because he pulled all but 2 workers to help out with the skate cross preliminaries. Coupled with the introduction of countless FR models, and the introduction of Trix with few improvements to iGors/KSJs, and I'm no longer certain that slalom remains their primary focus.

P.S. There's a guy in Beijing with custom blue EVOs, so I think Powerslide does custom coloring in China as well if you're willing to pay for it.

[Ozzy]

There's a difference between marketing a product and marketing a sport

It's not really that uncommon in marketing to not only create a product but also create the demand for the product. And how do you create demand for slalom skates? By marketing slalom, of course.

Again, that's not something bad, in fact it's very good because in the grand scheme of things, it made the world a much more interesting place with so many fun things to do.

Sebas marketing concept was to revive the slalom sport to sell high-end skates there instead of simply be one vendor among many. Slalom was always a very small niche and Seba tried to make it more organized and more professional to get more people into it and at the same time get a head start as prime vendor. This wouldn't have worked as well in bigger sports, so the idea was really clever. Of course that also means to spend money on it. But that's money well spend, because it paid back in sales and higher margins.

in a commodity market

Slalom skating was no commodity market. There simply were no skates directly tailored to slalom before Seba created the original High. And if you sell something without competition, you can set the price solely based on maximizing profits.

Today it's a bit different. Now Powerslide tries to get a piece of the action and is using the infrastructure Seba created. Of course Seba has to fight back and the result are concepts like the Trix (Sebas answer to the Evo) or the FRX (Sebas answer to Powerslides "powerblading" which in turn is a response to Sebas success in the "freeride" market) and also Sebas engagement in Skatecross.

Again: I'm not against Seba. I like their engagement, because I like skating. I also salute them for their marketing concept building up slalom to sell specialized slalom skates. And if Seba uses their hard earned position to sell their Skates with a premium, I don't have any problem with it. Anybody who buys slalom skates from the competition has to consider that this may also hurt the slalom sport, because in the moment there is no other vendor with the same dedication to slalom as Seba. But there's also no need to get starry-eyed over Seba. It's still a company which tries to make money (ok, in fact it's not a company, it's a brand, but no need to nit-pick here).

- Seba provides spare parts what no other company does

That's also quite usual for aggressive skates (where Powerslide is quite active). So yes, Seba is different compared to PS under their "prime" brand, but in general it's nothing really unusual.

Seba skates are available all over the year with regular re-stocking

That depends on the manufacturer. Seba is bigger than Powerslide, so they can afford more frequent production runs.

If EVOs are marketed as a general purpose freeskate, wouldn't that apply to iGors as well?

iGors are primarily marketed as "pro-model" slalom skates until now. They could've also created the Trix based on the iGor, but for some reason they decided to base it on the KSJ (maybe manufacturing costs, maybe something else. Hard to tell from the outside).

it feels as though they've been focusing on expanding into other markets the past few years.

You're not alone in this regard. But for a company to grow it needs to expand in other markets. Seba started this some time ago by introducing the FR series and they seemed successful with it. So they try to repeat that in other areas.

[Naomi]

If EVOs are marketed as a general purpose freeskate, wouldn't that apply to iGors as well? It seems like iGors fit the high-performance all-purpose freeskate profile much better than KSJs ever did.

I completely agree.

I appreciate how Seba has promoted and developed the sport, but it feels as though they've been focusing on expanding into other markets the past few years. I saw Sebastian himself at the Beidaihe roller competitions the past two years, and never once did I see him at the slalom/slides area, skate cross seemed like his only focus. Last year, I heard that the finals for the speed slalom competition was severely understaffed because he pulled all but 2 workers to help out with the skate cross preliminaries. Coupled with the introduction of countless FR models, and the introduction of Trix with few improvements to iGors/KSJs, and I'm no longer certain that slalom remains their primary focus.

I also agree with this. Seb is a very focussed guy and pours a lot of effort into what he is trying to grow. I guess he is feeding & watering slalom while also trying to start from scratch with the skate cross. He's intense & will assume that something will fail unless it happens absolutely perfectly and as per his vision. He's often correct in that regard. One thing is for certain though - growing skating is still his/their primary focus. Slalom was the first tool that was focussed on, and now skate cross. He/they'll focus on whatever they feel will bring skating into success. I don't think I'm doing a very good job here in the US, other than giving money for events, but I'm hoping that after this season of learning the business I'll be able to be more proactive next year.